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Forum » Forum » Ideas » Item for early off-lane game (Item that will allow earlier farming off lane.)
Item for early off-lane game
TronFecha: Wednesday, 2017-01-25, 11:18 PM | Mensaje # 1
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Hello, I would like to tell you about a little idea of mine.
I have occasionally played HoE for few a years now, mostly with 2-3 of my friends.
Beating game is relatively easy, game is more about killing off-lane bosses.
However we often have to a little problem, we want to farm gold-Xp with best efficiency, or
farm mundane items for Blacksmith.
This means going to farm in wild.



However, even early lvl 1 spiderlings can be a problem to farm on for a first few levels.
This means that someone have to spend a lot of time in lane,
    healing from poison and so on, loosing gold from last hits.
This makes it more of Xp/gold waste.
By the time when s/he is able to clear them with affordable hp loss,
    most of their item drops are pointless, and received Xp is too small.



SO to get to the point, I think there could be a way to give a little early-game boost for wild farming.

Lowering stats/ Boosting rewards would not work, so only thing I could come up with is specialized item.
Requirements:
-Cheep (Affordable at start or shortly after)
-Gives appropriate Xp bonus for lower levels, ineffective at mid-late game
-Improves sustain, lowers Hp trade-off from fight
-Almost no influence in lane / boss fight
-Small punishment for leaving wild



My Opinion:

  • +5 hp regen, increased to +15 when in wild and out of fight
  •  3+2(level of monster) Xp for each kill in wild
  • Each kill while in wild will give stack to this item
  • Do damage on-hit equal to (2+ stacks/5)
  • Maximum of stacks is 100
  • After leaving Wild get gold equal to (Stacks x(stacks/20)), loosing all stacks
  • Leaving wild also puts item on cool down


There are many ways how to adjust this, presently I have few ideas on my mind.


Maybe this would need a little tweaks but I think it wont be game breaking,
and allow players off lane farming earlier.
Max gold you can get is 500 from killing 100 creeps, what isn't that much.
And max on-hit damage is 22, that is pretty balanced for me because:


A: Mages get very little from this, as they mostly kill creeps with spells, but gold is good
B: Agility based heroes benefit most from this,
     but they are pretty fragile and will loose life steal bonus if they have it
C: Those bonuses are disabled when you leave wilderness, so it wont help you in lane
D: In scenario when players use this on-hit bonus against wild bosses, there could be region around them
     that will act as entering the lane to prevent mysuse
E: Encourages player to stay longer in wild to get most from gold boost, and not to loose buffs

Strength heroes get the most from this item, but from my point of view strength hero should be one who gives safe lane to squishy, helping with bosses only.

Thanks for any replies, have a nice day.

Added (2017-01-25, 11:18 PM)
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Message edited by Tron - Saturday, 2017-01-21, 1:36 AM
KarifeanFecha: Thursday, 2017-01-26, 2:30 AM | Mensaje # 2
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Honestly, it just sounds way too complicated to me.
DrekTharFecha: Thursday, 2017-01-26, 10:19 AM | Mensaje # 3
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I just don't understand who would need this? Also takes away the challenge of jungling...
KawsFecha: Wednesday, 2017-02-08, 1:07 AM | Mensaje # 4
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I don't think this is actually needed. Both Infernal and Firelord can jungle from level 3, albeit with some difficulty, by killing mobs, then coming back to fountain. Lots of other heroes (Mur'gul, Defender, Azura, Wendigo, etc) can do jungle effortlessly as soon as they hit level 8 or 9, which is still a point where getting four Green Flags is enough to bring a smile to your face. That being the case, there is nothing to justify the creation of something to make jungling easier.


(Not to mention that Worker can cheese half of the jungling spots with towers)


Message edited by Kaws - Wednesday, 2017-02-08, 1:09 AM
Deathly_GodFecha: Friday, 2017-03-10, 12:37 PM | Mensaje # 5
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Quote Kaws ()
I don't think this is actually needed. Both Infernal and Firelord can jungle from level 3, albeit with some difficulty, by killing mobs, then coming back to fountain. Lots of other heroes (Mur'gul, Defender, Azura, Wendigo, etc) can do jungle effortlessly as soon as they hit level 8 or 9, which is still a point where getting four Green Flags is enough to bring a smile to your face. That being the case, there is nothing to justify the creation of something to make jungling easier.

I think the point he's making is, if you have say a 5 or 6 person game, why not have one person be a dedicated jungler from the beginning (without having to redo someones entire spell/toolkit just to be able to survive the level 1's). All your points involve people lvl 3+ as a best-case example.

My personal input on this idea is that, why not make a poison resistance item? It might be easier to add in, and would effectively eliminate 60%+ of the damage spiders do. While not making the middle jungle the friendliest of places, it would be a great addition for certain early jungle clearing heroes like Party Leader.


Message edited by Deathly_God - Friday, 2017-03-10, 12:39 PM
DrekTharFecha: Friday, 2017-03-10, 4:31 PM | Mensaje # 6
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There are plenty of heroes who can jungle from lvl 1. Firelord/jaina/centaur/wendigo/infernal to name a few...
KawsFecha: Friday, 2017-03-10, 10:32 PM | Mensaje # 7
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Quote Deathly_God ()
My personal input on this idea is that, why not make a poison resistance item? It might be easier to add in, and would effectively eliminate 60%+ of the damage spiders do. While not making the middle jungle the friendliest of places, it would be a great addition for certain early jungle clearing heroes like Party Leader.


There isn't a single way to do an item that gives resistance to non-scripted poison in warcraft. He'd have to re-work all poisons into scripts, which would not only turn the code into a magnificent clusterfuck, but would also make the map even laggier than it already is.

As for my point about lvl 3's, that was considering you do stronger mobs, instead of spider babies. Rexxar's bear cannot be killed by little spiders at all(non-lethal poison+damage reduction=stuck at 1hp), wendigo can kill them easily, and the same for just about any hero. Shadow hunter can even do crabs from lvl 1(never noticed it until recently). And don't even get me started on worker.

On your point about party: any Party player worth his salt is going to get a priest, because of the stat bonuses, so you automatically have a counter for poison: heal it.
Deathly_GodFecha: Friday, 2017-03-10, 10:48 PM | Mensaje # 8
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Quote Kaws ()
On your point about party: any Party player worth his salt is going to get a priest, because of the stat bonuses, so you automatically have a counter for poison: heal it.
But that assumes two things then about the partys composition. Either A. he starts level 1 with the healing priest (which will slow you down immensely), or B. you get the Blessing skill on priest first, in which case you can heal *one* hero for 3 seconds, every minute. When spiders auto target un-poisoned units, that's not viable beyond lvl 1 spiders either.

As for the Beastmaster, his bear can only handle level 1 spiders, because the spitting spiders do more than his dmg reduc early, and will kill him. Additionally, get 3-4 baby spiders and they can kill the bear on respawn if you dont corpse camp.

As to your worker point, yes you can cheese the forest with your towers, however you can't farm spitting spiders or any of the higher level monsters in the middle (at least effectively) as Worker. The best worker can do is build on cliffs and lure melees over, and even that process takes a solid 30 minutes due to cooldowns. Furthermore, in that time they're often 5-9 levels below their counterparts on the map.

TL;DR all these solutions still don't offer what Tron is posting about, creating a viable 5th slot to efficiently gain exp/gold early game from the jungle. It's not a question of IF a hero can kill *some* spiders, it's can these heroes at least keep relatively even with their laning counterparts, and how can this become a viable strategy.
blinerqFecha: Saturday, 2017-03-11, 2:43 PM | Mensaje # 9
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Well, I don´t think you are supposed to be a complete jungling Hero from the beginning atm, so some heros can do more, some cannot during the early levels.

There could be some item for it, but the item suggested is just like Kari said way too complicated.

Some suggestions (which could also be interesting for Heros with a weak early game like LC) i could think of:

Bomb (Cost: ~150 Gold: Use: Does 250 Damage and 0.5 Second Stun in 300 AOE, 3 Charges) - An AOE Damage item that is consumable. (Could also be very useful for a struggling LC in the beginning when Aboms stack) Maybe as a followup recipe: Bomb + Some Tier 2 Item to make a cannon that is not consumable and has a stronger effect.

Primal Flag (Cost: ??? Use: Places a Primal Flag that gives Bonuses (I dont know which bonuses would be balanced, probably lil armor, lil HP and Mana Reg, lil DMG) for a time; Consumable?)

Net (Cost: ??? Use: Decreases Attack Speed and Damage of Units in 200 AOE by X / X%)

Bear Trap (Cost: ??? Use: Places a bear trap that does X Damage (600-1200?) when it is triggered.)

Antidote (Cost: 50, 3 Charges: Removes a poison effect. Does not work on Heroes beyond level X.)

Potion of Rapid Growth (~100 Gold, Increases XP gain for a duration, does not work on Heros whose level is higher than X)

For HP Regen there is the Healing Salve... I don´t think it would be possible / necessary to make a potion that increases HP Regen in the Neutral Zones.
DrekTharFecha: Saturday, 2017-03-11, 3:14 PM | Mensaje # 10
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Party team is already a hero that can farm from lvl 1. Awakening stacks, just saying...
Deathly_GodFecha: Sunday, 2017-03-12, 0:26 AM | Mensaje # 11
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Quote DrekThar ()
Party team is already a hero that can farm from lvl 1. Awakening stacks, just saying...
I mean as long as you dont go spiders, sure I guess? (If you do do spiders, and ever have your priest help you though, not only do you have 2 extra heroes siphoning exp, but they're also guarenteed to be poisoned and lose all their hp.) Although with the EXP nerfs, even awakened farming has gotten a lot harder. I mean, with 3 stacks your Party Leader can barely handle ogres bottom left. The fact that both the EXP gain for Party has been reduced, as well as the EXP book was pretty harsh. For skill-point reliant heroes like Party Leader, its a major hit to their effectiveness.
DrekTharFecha: Sunday, 2017-03-12, 3:12 PM | Mensaje # 12
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You can start with crabs, forest, or ogres. Doesn't really matter. When it comes to party team, I may have played him more that almost anyone. What you're saying doesn't really make sense.
KawsFecha: Sunday, 2017-03-12, 7:33 PM | Mensaje # 13
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Quote Deathly_God ()
But that assumes two things then about the partys composition. Either A. he starts level 1 with the healing priest (which will slow you down immensely), or B. you get the Blessing skill on priest first, in which case you can heal *one* hero for 3 seconds, every minute. When spiders auto target un-poisoned units, that's not viable beyond lvl 1 spiders either.

As for the Beastmaster, his bear can only handle level 1 spiders, because the spitting spiders do more than his dmg reduc early, and will kill him. Additionally, get 3-4 baby spiders and they can kill the bear on respawn if you dont corpse camp.

As to your worker point, yes you can cheese the forest with your towers, however you can't farm spitting spiders or any of the higher level monsters in the middle (at least effectively) as Worker. The best worker can do is build on cliffs and lure melees over, and even that process takes a solid 30 minutes due to cooldowns. Furthermore, in that time they're often 5-9 levels below their counterparts on the map.

TL;DR all these solutions still don't offer what Tron is posting about, creating a viable 5th slot to efficiently gain exp/gold early game from the jungle. It's not a question of IF a hero can kill *some* spiders, it's can these heroes at least keep relatively even with their laning counterparts, and how can this become a viable strategy.


Look at any wendigo playing on baby spiders. He'll always be at the same level as a solo laner if he knows what he's doing.
Forum » Forum » Ideas » Item for early off-lane game (Item that will allow earlier farming off lane.)
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