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Forum » Forum » Ideas » Unholy Knight Ultimate Rework (It feels like Unholy Knight's Ultimate is an afterthought.)
Unholy Knight Ultimate Rework
Deathly_GodFecha: Friday, 2017-03-10, 12:27 PM | Mensaje # 1
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As a fan of the Unholy Knight, and playing him for over thirty games there's been one part of his kit that really seems to bother me. I love the idea of a high risk, high reward hero who can be potentially one of the best late game carries if played well. However, it seems like his kits interactions with end-game bosses sets him up for failure. For instance, his Strike (or e spell) should be doing massive amounts of damage after his Strength steroid. However, even with 900+ souls, and Sinister Pact active, it does less than 20,000 damage to Death. For a hero who almost has to soak up two lanes, and three sections of neutral monsters, that's pretty underwhelming. (granted that when analyzing his strike on most neutral bosses, he does an adequate job at rapidly burning them down and tanking through their damage as compared to the current frontrunners of Wendigo and Abomination for this role).

This brings me to the main issue. Of all his spells, his ultimate seems the most dead-weight. You get 16 souls for investing 1 skill point in it, and that's just about it. To ever use it's active to commit suicide. Not only that, but it basically does nothing even when you DO release all your souls, as you probably wont live long enough for them all to shoot out of you anyways. To this, I've had two possible ideas.

His ultimate could either A: function similar to classic Wc3's Goblin Tinkerer, where it adds additional effects (or power-ups) to his other spells (for instance, boosting the soul gain rate of his heal/soul collection ability, or adding magic penetration for his Soul Strike).

My other idea is that it decreases the amount of souls you lose upon death (stacking per level). I got this idea while I was soloing Apocalypse Dragon for my team. With a lot of late-game (neutral) bosses, there carries a high rate of being stun locked or otherwise incapacitated through your entire Sinister Pact, into which you instantly die due to losing all your HP. Now this is fine and dandy with his playstyle, but when you start comparing him to (arguably) easier heroes like Little Child or Wendigo, it seems like there's just a high risk, and no real reward to speak of. If you can make it to level 32 without dying a single time, I feel like a reward should be given.

As for an implementation, I was thinking of something along the lines of:
Level 1 Ultimate -> 16 souls                                                                                                         
Level 2 Ultimate -> 32 Souls, 1/2 multiplier on souls lost (You now lose 1/8th of your souls)                                                               
Level 3 Ultimate -> 48 Souls, 1/4th Multiplier on souls lost (1/16th souls lost)                                                                                        
Level 4 Ultimate -> 64 Souls, 1/8th Multiplier on souls lost (1/32nd souls lost).

This math works out, if you have roughly 600 souls to 19 souls lost, as compared to 150 in the current working model for a level 4 ultimate. However, if you're like me and tend to have around 900 souls by the end of Final Disease, you'd lose 28.125 souls, rather than 225 (which would amount to 1800 strength lost during Sinister Pact).

I believe this style of change would not only encourage Unholy Knight to play a more active role in the clearing of bosses in late game fights, but also would provide an actually useful skill besides simply 64 (or 128 if you get Dragon Slayer/Excalibur) souls. For farming diligently for 3 hours, you'd expect a better payoff. Especially considering the spells and abilities of other late-game alternatives (Wendigo and Abomination come to mind), and the Unholy Knights own skill curves. (The latter ultimate idea would also allow the Unholy Knight to rejoin the fights against Death and later bosses, without having to worry about losing 1/4th of the games progress to an unlucky crit).
MarckFecha: Friday, 2017-03-10, 12:37 PM | Mensaje # 2
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Quote Deathly_God ()
or 128 if you get Dragon Slayer/Excalibur
actualy if u get excalibur u will get 64 more souls as bonus but I think unholy knight is a more magic dealer than physical. Get a full hunter upgraded and you will deal a lot of damage,both between ur normal attack,ur first spell and ur ulty!
DrekTharFecha: Friday, 2017-03-10, 4:28 PM | Mensaje # 3
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The hunt item deals normal damage, but I will have to disagree. Unholy knight can effectively kill one later game boss by himself, but after releasing souls he is pretty much done.

If you have a replay with him, I could give you some advice. I strongly disagree that he needs any form of buffing. I think some heroes (Like medusa) are just not played correctly. I mean, she can easily get 150k damage with some help.
MarckFecha: Friday, 2017-03-10, 9:04 PM | Mensaje # 4
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Quote DrekThar ()
The hunt item deals normal damage
I checked the final form and it says that deals magic damage ... I hope that atleast the final form have a magic damage so it wont get reduced by armor (and not only armor type) 
Quote DrekThar ()
I think some heroes (Like medusa) are just not played correctly. I mean, she can easily get 150k damage with some help.
I agree with this, I want to experiment some form of treant blocking and stack agility with it but the main problem is that medusa will be locked in a place ,she cant move around the map a lot ( u need to teleport fast out and in from battle and kill some big boss in 30 seconds is a bit difficult) Between I think that ninja is a bit more managable
KawsFecha: Friday, 2017-03-10, 10:23 PM | Mensaje # 5
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Quote Marck ()
I checked the final form and it says that deals magic damage ... I hope that atleast the final form have a magic damage so it wont get reduced by armor (and not only armor type)


Unlike The World is My Prey, Hunter does not scale with STR or AGI, and it's ludicrously hard to charge up. Even if you do manage to charge it, you'd be better off giving it to an admiral or marine for more procs, since it doesn't actually care about your stats.
Deathly_GodFecha: Friday, 2017-03-10, 11:00 PM | Mensaje # 6
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Quote Kaws ()
Unlike The World is My Prey, Hunter does not scale with STR or AGI, and it's ludicrously hard to charge up. Even if you do manage to charge it, you'd be better off giving it to an admiral or marine for more procs, since it doesn't actually care about your stats.
Yeah, this is what I ran in to as well. Since The World is My Prey does magic damage on hit, the effective bonus of it's STR + AGI on hit damage is actually quite low (I tested this a while back on Azaz, seeing the dps changes between a 1200 stacked World Is My Prey and a True Decapitator, for similar +physical damage). 
Quote DrekThar ()
The hunt item deals normal damage, but I will have to disagree. Unholy knight can effectively kill one later game boss by himself, but after releasing souls he is pretty much done.

It still just runs into the same problem though. I'm not really talking about a *buff* per-say, with these ultimate changes. Merely turning whats effectively a placeholder spell with a semi-convenient passive, into an actual part of his kit. I mean if you want to compare it to his other spells, you get better scaling taking 1 point into his AoE nuke than you do taking the 16 souls from his ultimate, which kind of defeats the purpose of an "ultimate" spell. 

I can probably do another game of him at some point, but it gets kind of tiring. We get a level 4 or 5 On the Hunt, I get to roughly 2500 stacks by the time Final Disease comes, and yet I still do less damage than say, Wendigo, despite what at least I perceive to be similar mechanics for stacking. 

I guess my ultimate point is that Unholy Knight, for the difficulty he has to deal with, as well as the amount of space he has to take up on the map does not feel worth it right now. It's less a question of *if he can kill x*, and more of *well y can kill x better, with less trouble.* I'm more just trying to come up with a way to keep Unholy competitive with his alternatives, which right now he isn't.
MarckFecha: Friday, 2017-03-10, 11:11 PM | Mensaje # 7
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Quote Deathly_God ()
Unlike The World is My Prey, Hunter does not scale with STR or AGI, and it's ludicrously hard to charge up
wait ,so you are saying that the final form doesnt add ur str and agi as bonus dmg??it just use the charges? shit A whole world of item builds is falling apart T.T
KawsFecha: Saturday, 2017-03-11, 0:39 AM | Mensaje # 8
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Quote Marck ()
wait ,so you are saying that the final form doesnt add ur str and agi as bonus dmg??it just use the charges? shit A whole world of item builds is falling apart T.T


Yup. It's 8x charges, and that's it.
MarckFecha: Saturday, 2017-03-11, 1:37 AM | Mensaje # 9
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Quote Kaws ()
Yup. It's 8x charges, and that's it.
 Sadness time then sad
Deathly_GodFecha: Saturday, 2017-03-11, 2:17 AM | Mensaje # 10
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Quote Marck ()
Sadness time then
Pretty much. Plus the stacks are only lvl9+, so it's pretty dang hard to get it to be anything other than flavor text. Tbh the "upgrade" just isn't worth it for just about everyone (imo). Although, on the bright side, you CHOOSE to move from The World Is My Prey to the next level, since you need to have a recipe in your inventory in order for it to change.


Message edited by Deathly_God - Saturday, 2017-03-11, 2:18 AM
Forum » Forum » Ideas » Unholy Knight Ultimate Rework (It feels like Unholy Knight's Ultimate is an afterthought.)
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