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Forum » Forum » Ideas » Kael rework (My 60 sec on what could make this hero viable)
Kael rework
elmholt82Fecha: Sunday, 2017-08-06, 11:25 PM | Mensaje # 1
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Hey all of you

First of, big fan of the map, one of my "new" favoritesin war3 smile
Second, not sure if its here, one are meant to post thingssuch as this. So pls correct me if I’m wrong smile

Now let’s get down to it.
Orb of annihilation: This ability is what, for me, defines Kael. As
Superboy has mentioned in the forum, there seems to be a bug, where, when you
chance to chaos type damage, no longer can crit. It works fine with normal damage
and hero damage. Besides that, it seems fine, perhaps change it, so max damage
on lvl 9 is change to 1200 damage, minor change.
Fork Lighting: Nice early farm ability due low cooldown and low mana
cost. Perhaps change it, so it at lvl 8 deals 500 damage, and at lvl 9 deals
600 damage. Since you only use it for early farm, it would be nice with the
minor boost.
Entangle: Total rework. In my opinion, it doesn’t fit in for the hero. New
ability; Arcane Mastery: “Kale masters the Arcane Arts, letting him feed upon
his enemies, due his abilities. Lvl 1) 5% of Kaels magical damage is gained as
hp and mana. Lvl bonus +2%. At lvl 9 it’s a total of 21% damage as hp and mana
leach. Lets say we end up criting 50k, just as an example. Kael will regain 10,500.

Brilliance Aura/Mana Replenish: Total Rework. While I think this ability
is good early on, and while it helps late game, it just doesn’t cut it. And
with Arcane Mastery, it wouldn’t be needed end game. New ability; Battlemage
Training “Kael uses both the arcane and physical powers on his way to victory”.
Lvl 1) Gain +5 intelligence, +3% AS and 2 base armor. Lvl bonus +5
intelligence, +3% AS and +2 base armor. At lvl 9 that a total of 45
intelligence, 21% AS and 18 base armor. At lvl 9 it should also have a active
effect, in style with admirals strength gain. Active it for permeant +5
intelligence, cooldown 240 sec and mana cost 400.   
Mana Shield: Minor rework. This ability seems to stop being useful when
you face the reel end game bosses. It just doesn’t take the damage. Change it,
so it absorbs 5,7,11,15 damage pr mana, affects 35, 50, 65, 80% of the damage,
and let it only absorb magical damage, not physical. Then let it give Kael 10,30,50,75
armor also. Then it would be clear, that to tank physical damage, Kael, still
needs some defensive items.
This way Kael would have some good early farm, some good scaling late
game damage, sustainability and you can focus him as either tank or dps, if you
want him to be a good support as well, lets Arcane Mastery be a aura, to give
to allies as well.  
That’s kinda what I have for Kael, ty for reading
Glass_HouseFecha: Sunday, 2017-08-06, 11:56 PM | Mensaje # 2
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Interesting. Kael is one of my favorite heroes, nice to see someone else taking interest in him. smile

About each spell and your proposed changes...
Orb: Although I wouldn't say this is the spell that defines Kael (that would be Mana Shield imo), it's still a trademark of his. I think it's fine as it is.

Fork: I also think that this spell doesn't need any changes. While it might seem to be only useful early game, notice that due to its 2 second cooldown it actually makes Kael one of the best heroes to carry a Sorcerer's Amulet. It's a fun build, try it some time biggrin

Entangle: Agree with you that this spell could be changed. It also can only target ground units, making it completely useless against dragons.
While giving Kael a life/mana leech would certainly be useful, I'm not sure if it fits the hero. Unsure about this idea. Will give it some more thought later.
What I do know is that I would certainly like to see Entangle replaced by something else

Aura: Great early game, unnoticeable late game. I'm not sure if it needs a rework, maybe only a buff. Make it so after level 5 it starts giving % regen too. Meybe something like 20%/40%/60%/80%/100% bonus mana regen (while also retaining the flat regen)? Would keep it relevant in the late game. Although I quite like the idea of also giving it an active that gives you a permanent bonus, that is a nice suggestion. Maybe give it an active from the start that increases your mana and mana regen each time? Might be cool...

Shield: It's true that mana shield is weak against later bosses, but it has been explained before that in Warcraft 3 mana shield is only really great against spell damage and bad against physical damage. The reason being that the shield takes 100% of the damage and isn't affected by armor or spell damage reduction. I think that this actually can be used in Kael's favor by making him fill a specific niche role in being a tank specialized in tanking magic damage rather than physical damage. Makes him kind of unique imo.
RedFecha: Monday, 2017-08-07, 12:44 PM | Mensaje # 3
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Maybe instead of the flat bonus of Battle you could make a scaling model, since i think the "you get a flat bonus"-passive-Abilities are often completely useless lategame (and the design itself isn´t that fancy at all). 

Maybe some "Ascension" ability (i wouldn´t care if its active or passive), that gives him some bonus Armor, Attack Speed and maybe more while scaling to his Mana or INT. 

Maybe instead of a "leech" ability, make a mana burn ability that also heals Kael (would fit in the WoW/WC3 lore pretty good as well)

Could someone explain the way how Mana Shield works with a calculation pls?
Dean123Fecha: Wednesday, 2017-08-09, 5:48 AM | Mensaje # 4
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Ah, a solo player. Inmortal likes to have this map multiplayer based, and the propositions you have presented contain no co op elements.

I agree with GlassHouse on several points, Orb is fine as it is, it's up to Inmortal to decide whether it's balanced or not (although I will admit I was a bit disappointed when I saw it doesn't work with Sorcerer's amulet, but that would be kinda op, would make Kael playable solo against 98+ bosses tho, so there's that).
The leech ability is a terrible idea, not only is it overpowered af, it also provides no cooperative elements. Instead, it would be nice if Entangled roots was able to target air units as well (as GlassHouse suggested), and had an extra effect for team play. Something like, target has reduced spell damage reduction or has reduced armor, with the addition that this extra effect cannot be dispelled or duration reduced.
People seem to be obsessed with infinite/permanent stats increasing abilities (active), but that is not the only road to victory. Do you people jerk off to the Berserker/Unholy Knight lol?
No offense.
As for the aura, again, I would change nothing in Glass House's suggestion.
Also, I have a question about the flat bonus. When you get an item that increases your mana regeneration by, say, 400%, does that include the flat bonus from the aura? I mean, does that add another 80mp/s? Even if it does, a 100% regen bonus would not be overpowering.
As for the mana shield, I was thinking about adding the Force ability from the Force Staff from DotA. I'm just using DotA as an example, the ability is used in many other maps. As I was saying, when Kael's mana shield is destroyed, it explodes and pushes all nearby enemies (within 600 range) away from Kael for 600 range from their current position, as well as dealing damage based in Kael's total mana and adding a MS, but not AS, decrease to the affected units. This effect, of course, cannot be triggered more than once every 200(debatable) seconds.

someone explain the way how Mana Shield works with a calculation pls?
I'm not sure what's confusing you? I'll respond to the only thing that could be confusing...
If a mana shield absorbs 100% of incoming damage, then as long as mana shield is active no damage will be dealt to the units health, as long as the unit has sufficient mana.
So far, from my knowledge from other maps, mana shield is not affected by armour value (I THINK, this could be misleading however, this also means dragons do not deal extra damage to the mana shield), armour type, or magic damage reduction. It could be different here tho. I am not familiar with how it works with %chance block tho, as that's not quite a common concept in maps. I do not think the mana damage can be reduced by a chance to block an incoming attack honestly...
Now, back to the numbers. If a units mana shield (100% damage absorbed) absorbs 2 points of damage per point of mana, and the unit is attacked by an 100 damage attack, it will lose 50 points of mana, and 0 health.
If, however, the mana shield absorbs, say 90 % damage, and has a 2 points of damage per point of mana rating, and gets attacked by a 100 damage attack, only 90 of that damage will be absorbed into the mana shield, and the unit will lose 45 mana due to the 2:1 ratio. The remaining 10 damage is calculated normally, it is reduced by armour value, armour type (or increased, depending on type), it can be blocked by the shield percentile block, and it succumbs to spell damage reduction if it is a spell.
It should be noted that mana shield stacks with evasion.
This needs Inmortal's seal of approval, as this was tested in other maps, it is however very difficult to change this.
I hope this helped you...
If you wanted actual wc3 editor data... Well, that's too tiresome to type, look it up on Hive.

Message edited by Dean123 - Wednesday, 2017-08-09, 10:44 AM
Glass_HouseFecha: Wednesday, 2017-08-09, 8:17 AM | Mensaje # 5
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Quote Dean123 ()
it would be nice if Entangled roots was able to target air units as well, and had an extra effect for team play

This is a great suggestion and gave me an idea for a spell that I think would be very fitting for Kael: Mana Drain.
It could briefly stun the target on cast (significantly shorter duration than the current Entangle), just to keep it from being literally useless against manaless targets. Also, it would deal no damage. And it would obviously be a channelled ability.
I think it would be a nice spell because:
-provides utility in boss fights by burning their mana
-helps Kael keep his shield up
-being channelled means it wouldn't be abusable in single player games
Dean123Fecha: Wednesday, 2017-08-09, 8:26 AM | Mensaje # 6
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Yes, mana steal does actually sound good,as it is unused in the current map and would fit Kael nicely. Inmortal has his own ideas tho, who knows if these suggestions are going against his idea. Red's mana burn also sounds okay. Bottom line is Kael needs improvements down the line, but like I said there are already other plans so I wouldn't bet on next version having a Kael buff, but it probably will happen.
elmholt82Fecha: Sunday, 2017-08-13, 0:44 AM | Mensaje # 7
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hey to all of you. Always a nice thing with response smile 

first off, i never play this map solo. When i play it, its with 2-3 friends. Solo play this map for me kinda doesn't cut it :/ 

There was a lot of response, let me just react on a couple of things. 

I have actually tried sorcerer amulet on Kael. Fun yeah, but not that useful smile

I disagree that the changes, would make Kael OP, compare to the 8ish standard heroes, people always pick.

The thing with Kael iis, he aint a tank, he aint a support, and due his skillset, he aint a late game dps. Drops can help on all 3 types of characters, but then again, item will help on every hero.

If Kael is supposed to be a dps character, then let him have the chance to be, based on skillset. I get that he current is hybrid. And while that fun to play for the "casual" bosses, is kinda time wasted, when you are only 4 players total.
Forum » Forum » Ideas » Kael rework (My 60 sec on what could make this hero viable)
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